<gja> Does anybody here follow "Everybody loves Eric S Raymond?"
<stickster> Yes, guilty pleasure
<gja> bwahaha, what an evil comic strip :)
love it :)
his blog is equally hilarious
<mether> Fedora's way forward. bah
<gja> well hey there mether :)
<gja> how's the new position and all?
<mether> when I figure out what I am supposed to be doing, I will let you know
<[splinux]> I received a fedora pen today :)
<stickster> Was it like this one? http://redhat.brandfuelstores.com/images/medium/198B-353_MED.jpg
<stickster> *jinx [splinux]
<[splinux]> stickster, yes ;)
<gja> sweet :)
<[splinux]> It comes from Thomas Chung :p
<stickster> I have a ton of RH schwag but I would love to get some Fedora stuff... Maybe at another FUDCon in CA in fall :-)
<hers> an old question: may I make T-shirt and hats with fedora logos and sell them on some where like Taobao/eBay? anyone please help me.. thx.. I don't know what kind of permission I should take.
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<gja> hers: you'd probably have to contact Alex Maioer for that
<stickster> My guess is that would be a big NO, since the Fedora logo is a trademark owned by Red Hat
Just a guess though ;-)
<hers> gja~ thanks. I'll try anyway.
<mether> hers, send a mail to email@example.com
<hers> mether~ thanks!
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<hers> I think it should be OK as long as the T-shirt is cool. :D
<stickster> I think I'll start selling some Red Hat T-shirts
Wait, maybe Nike
<gja> stickster: well, brand fuels DOES sell fedora t shirts
<stickster> gja: By specific written agreement with Red Hat, yes
<gja> and we don't want to be in the business of promoting monopolies
<gja> exactly, we can't say that hers DEFINATELY won't get an agreement
<stickster> Trademarks don't promote monopolies, it's how you tell one company from another
<gja> (s)he may or may not get permissions, its really up to the powers that be :p
<stickster> Nope, that's right, I was just guessing
But in order to keep a trademark vital, the law requires companies to defend it against usage outside specific agreement
Which doesn't mean they couldn't set up such an agreement -- it just means people can't go around using someone else's trademarks without such an agreement unless they're willing to get in a legal imbroglio
but in this case
he will be using the Fedora trademark to represent the Fedora Project
he's just making a profit off it on the side
<stickster> That's not appropriate, in my opinion.
<gja> yeah, no arguments there
<stickster> (not the representation part, just the profit)
Otherwise, I'd get a deal with a wholesaler for some cheap tennis shoes, slap "Nike Air Jordan" on 'em, and get rich
<hers> In fact the idea doesn't come from myself but some ubuntu-cn guys who managed to get the permission from ubuntu, then they are willing to do more. To promote linux, of course.
:) fedora and super Jordan
<gja> well, there is a difference with between a shirt that says 'Nike', and a shirt that says 'Buy Nike Shoes'
<stickster> Actually, when you use a trademark, there's not
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<[splinux]> and you send fedora clothes? no, i joke ;-)
on the other, hand, I believe .deb allows it's CONTRIBUTORS to make Ts and stuff
<mether> gja, you believe?
<gja> I read http://www.debian.org/logos/
<mether> gja, can you point to any written guidelines?
<gja> I quote
Permission has been given to use the official logo on clothing (shirts, hats, etc) as long as they are made by a Debian developer and not sold for profit.
<mether> use is different from selling
<gja> that is the "Official Logo" with the bottle and everything
<stickster> Yes, and they specifically prohibit selling for profit
<gja> yeah, the profit makes it a whole different story
<mether> no trademark guideline can allow selling by third parties and still retain the mark
<stickster> For the bottle logo you must have official approval from Debian
<mether> thats the whole point
<stickster> So maybe we need a logo for open use?
<mether> we are no better or no worse off than any distribution that I know of
stickster, we considered and rejected that earlier
<stickster> OK, I personally don't think we need one to begin with, but it's good to hear the issue's already been considered then
<mether> stickster, not my opinion. its webink's
stickster, it was posted in marketing list earlier
somewhere in the discussions
not as a independent subject
webink said something negative legally about that. I dont remember the details
<stickster> I think the "confusion in the marketplace" issue is enough to poo-poo the idea
<mether> in fact debian people were concerned that their trademark allowed too many misuses (which is true)
<gja> well, I think a not for profit IS a good idea
<mether> I suppose everyone knows about this - http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/0,2000061733,39197321,00.htm
as well Red Hat's own enforcements
<stickster> gja: Unfortunately RH legal disagrees, and since they own the trademark, that's pretty much end of story
<mether> you can argue with counsel but you need a draft set of guidelines
that addresses their concerns
if anyone got a clean set of policies, feel free to bring that up
debian policy is too vague according to their own people. so I wouldnt count that in
<stickster> If anyone wants to draft those guidelines, do it in the wiki to allow public comment & cleanup
But make sure it is clearly marked as a DRAFT that will be presented as an argument, NOT policy
<gja> in the mean time, does anyone have a fedora button like this?
<mether> the default fedora apache test page had something similar
<stickster> Yeah, it used the old trademark methinks
<mether> yeah, we should get diana fong to spice up a new one
<stickster> Yes, as long as it comes with explicit permission by RH to use it and how
<gja> there is one with a red hat
<stickster> gja: That's a problem.
gja: First, the red hat is a TM confusion with Red Hat's official marks -- that IMHO is even worse than using the Fedora logo
<gja> it's an old pre-fc2 button :p
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<gja> and the fact it has a red hat is why I'm not using it :p
<stickster> gja: Didn't say you were ;-)
gja: This channel may be logged for info of others
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<stickster> I think, rather than coming up with guidelines for broad use of the Fedora TM, it would be more useful to draft guidelines for using a specific instance of the trademark, e.g. a button like this for people to use on their Web sites
<mether> well the counsel is properly working on the patent infrigment case.
<stickster> mether: Is RH embroiled in a patent infringement case right now?
<mether> stickster, yes. http://www.linuxelectrons.com/article.php/20060629134257835
<stickster> Ah, did they inherit this case as a result of the purchase, or was it brought after the purchase?
<mether> stickster, brought after the purchase of course
<stickster> I figured as much ;-)
<mether> stickster, nobody would be suing Jboss independantly. the company on its own doesnt have enough profit to justify that
<mether> they probably waited and acted
much like gif or mp3 patents
and this case does have wide reaching implications
since pretty much everyone would be infrigning if they won
<stickster> That seems like a very broad patent idea... the comments in the PatentlyO blog, if they are correct -- which is anybody's guess since they come from non-patent attorneys -- seem to indicate some amount of prior art
<mether> I havent followed it in detail
<stickster> bye mether